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Post by dreamer on May 8, 2009 14:17:42 GMT -5
Oh :bangs head: as I didn't understand "verbiage" I used www.dict.cc/?s=verbiage and the page said it was Geschwätz, Blabla, Wortschall - all negative synonyms - hence fishwife talk. So Mea culpa. Thanks Martha - I didn't get what you meant. Now I think I do :-) How Fonda have recalled and told her stories have indeed seemed odd to me. And nothing like the interviews during or shortly after OGP. The more years have passed the more strange they have become. Nothing like when Kate was alive. I might have been a bit harsh with "a lie never lives long". Better said - in her book the story is different as are other video clips I have seen - she tells the story as if Kate rang her up and told her "you will never catch me" - and in this one she says she was the one to phone Kate to congratulate her. So there are two stories out there - depending on when or where she spoke. And as we all know - non of us where there ;-) So how knows - but strange it is. Am curious to get to know: What did Jane say to Kate so that Kate countered with "you will never catch me" - (not to defend Kate - that is not what I mean) - there must have gone on some jokes previous to Kate's remark. Just a thought - but that is what I think. As I believe Kate could be a cracker with words and jokes. As Fonda probably can be too.
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Post by Judy on May 8, 2009 14:23:39 GMT -5
I think generally Fonda has fond memories of working with Kate, but she does sometimes voice them in a way that implies judgment - which she's perfectly entitled to do, even when I think she's off base.
For instance, her comments about how (and I'm paraphrasing) "Kate always wanted to be fascinating. My father only cared about the acting."
Read: My father was the REAL actor; Hepburn was the personality. I've about had it with this sentiment. Hepburn's entire career refutes it. And she managed to be fascinating to boot. It's called being a star. An actor and a star.
Or, we all know that Kate was one competitive chic, but when Fonda tells the story of that phone call and how KH said "you'll never catch me now," her implication is that this was Kate being her old competitive self. Well, of course, it was - or it may have been - but as usual when people quote Hepburn they miss HEPBURN. They can't convey her sense of humor or the context in which something was said. Clearly that's a comment meant to be funny - not without an underside of competitiveness, possibly - but when the story is told, Fonda usually puts it completely in the context of Kate's unrelenting competitive nature, instead of presenting it as the off-handed, funny - not to mention prophetic (Fonda IS likely never to catch her in this regard) - line it is.
But all this is being picky and splitting hairs. I think the experience of working with her father was far more important to her. And, to me, she looked kind of baffled that this guy was going on and on with the Hepburn questions when she'd just been nominated for a Tony. Time to talk about MEEEEE. A sentiment Kate would clearly understand. HE is a fan of Kate's, though - as evidenced by him saying he owns a couple of her Oscar nomination plaques - and I would have done the same thing if I had the chance to talk to someone who'd worked with her.
I think like anybody else who gets asked about something or someone over and over again, sometimes they are in the mood to talk and present their stories in a different light and sometimes they are bored to tears with the question and just mouth off.
When Tyne Daly was touring in Gypsy before coming to B'way, I interviewed her in DC. I had followed the tour and read many of her interviews. Without fail, everybody asked her Cagney & Lacey questions, which she sometimes answered snidely as if to say she was done talking about the show. It was in her past and now she had Gypsy to talk about. So when I went to the interview, I had a bunch of Cagney & Lacey questions in mind, but thought that I'd only ask them if SHE brought up the subject of the show. At one point during the talk she did. So I did. And she then said some wonderful stuff about it that I might not have gotten if I'd jumped on her with the questions initially.
Anyway, back to Fonda. How she tells the stories also depend on the venue. In her one on one interview with Robert Osborne, she is moved to tears by some of them. In her Actors Studio interview in front of an audience, she played them for laughs -usually laughs at Kate's expense (why, oh why, is it necessary to mimic Kate's voice when telling a story; especially when you are Jane Fonda and your talent for mimicry is non-existent). And in a brief, off-the-cuff interview after her Tony nomination, when somebody sticks a mike in her face, she played it by ear and possibly misspoke.
On the whole, she's told some wonderful stories about Kate - my favorite being the one after they shot that scene at the parcheesi table and Daddy Fonda dismissed Jane out of hand. I won't go on about it, unless somebody doesn't know about it and wants to hear.
Judy
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Post by Judy on May 8, 2009 14:31:26 GMT -5
Oh :bangs head: as I didn't understand "verbiage" I used www.dict.cc/?s=verbiage and the page said it was Geschwätz, Blabla, Wortschall - all negative synonyms - hence fishwife talk. So Mea culpa. Thanks Martha - I didn't get what you meant. Now I think I do :-) How Fonda have recalled and told her stories have indeed seemed odd to me. And nothing like the interviews during or shortly after OGP. The more years have passed the more strange they have become. Nothing like when Kate was alive. I might have been a bit harsh with "a lie never lives long". Better said - in her book the story is different as are other video clips I have seen - she tells the story as if Kate rang her up and told her "you will never catch me" - and in this one she says she was the one to phone Kate to congratulate her. So there are two stories out there - depending on when or where she spoke. And as we all know - non of us where there ;-) So how knows - but strange it is. Am curious to get to know: What did Jane say to Kate so that Kate countered with "you will never catch me" - (not to defend Kate - that is not what I mean) - there must have gone on some jokes previous to Kate's remark. Just a thought - but that is what I think. As I believe Kate could be a cracker with words and jokes. As Fonda probably can be too. Well, verbiage does sometimes have a negative connotation, but I don't think Martha meant it negatively. I have this theory that the tone of Jane's theories took a turn to the more icy after Kate's comments about Henry being "cold, cold, cold" came to light. Of course, this is not something Jane did not say about him - in one form or another - her whole public life. But you know how it is, I can say that about my father, but YOU can't. I understand that. Interesting to ponder that she is now only 2 years younger than Kate was when they made OGP! Staggering how time flies.
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Post by dreamer on May 9, 2009 1:04:50 GMT -5
Thank you Judy - no I don't think Martha meant it that way - I was just as I only got these synonyms - Am glad Martha explained it for me Judy - it was not Kate who wrote "cold, cold, cold" - that was Berg in Kate Remembered: Hank Fonda was the hardest nut I ever tried to knack. But I didn’t know any more about him after we made the picture, than I did at the beginning. Cold. Cold. Cold. Fonda did mention that in a video and agreed with one word YUP. (Just not sure in which .... was it Fonda on Fonda??) I still believe it has something to do with Kate's own words in ME - where she writes about Fonda's liking her to watch the scenes she had with her father. Kate wrote: I never quite understood. It tells me that Fonda needed Kate, but can't admit it. Maybe there the bear lies buried?
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Post by Judy on May 9, 2009 16:45:43 GMT -5
Thank you Judy - no I don't think Martha meant it that way - I was just as I only got these synonyms - Am glad Martha explained it for me Judy - it was not Kate who wrote "cold, cold, cold" - that was Berg in Kate Remembered: Hank Fonda was the hardest nut I ever tried to knack. But I didn’t know any more about him after we made the picture, than I did at the beginning. Cold. Cold. Cold. Fonda did mention that in a video and agreed with one word YUP. (Just not sure in which .... was it Fonda on Fonda??) I still believe it has something to do with Kate's own words in ME - where she writes about Fonda's liking her to watch the scenes she had with her father. Kate wrote: I never quite understood. It tells me that Fonda needed Kate, but can't admit it. Maybe there the bear lies buried? But I didn't say she WROTE the cold remark. I just said that when the remark came to light, it might have bothered Jane Fonda. Now you have to ask yourself if you believe Berg quoted her accurately here. I have a feeling he did.
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Post by dreamer on May 10, 2009 4:03:42 GMT -5
No - you didn't Judy That was just me reminding who wrote what (as we have new members). Sorry for not adding that remark. If Berg quoted Kate actually. I think not. I believe he read between the lines and made up his mind what she might would have said. When I read Kate's own words in ME ... "Anyway it was a great setup and also great fun to do. Jane and Hank were busy working out a rather complicated father-daughter relationship, and this was to be the solution. An ambitious father and an ambitious daughter find their solution with an ambitious friend. We all had a good time. The scenes were fun to do. Jane liked to have me watch her scenes with her dad. Why I never quite understood.
The house I lived in was in the most commanding location and often I would see Henry Fonda take his evening stroll along the base of my property - and I'd wonder what he was thinking about. He was a good painter. I never saw him go in his bathing suite - always just walking solemnly along. Fully dressed - not hurrying - not going slowly - and a thousand miles away. He was an oddie. I never felt I knew him at all. He wasn't given to a lot of talk and neither was I.
It is a very odd relationship acting with someone. You are of course thrown into a most intimate relationship with someone. Then the picture ends. You may never see again. But people - especially ones writing articles or books say, - "What was he [or she] like?" And I don't really know them or anything about them. I wonder if this is true of most actors. I know that my father always advice an impersonal relationship with fellow workers. I must say I followed his advice, but as I look back I wonder if I just am like him. Not particularly given to easy friendships." I get about the same as what Berg wrote - but in a more polite way. Kate herself says that in the last lines - she never got personal with fellow workers. So no I don't think that Kate is quoted actually by Berg. Another thing that came to my mind while typing this - the first lines about a complicated father-daughter relationship between Jane and Hank - and a final solution. I guess that is what might have bothered Jane along with the understanding of why. I don't believe Berg quoted Kate in Kate Remembered. There are too strange quotes in it. As ex. the quotes about Streep, Close and others. Where did he and where did he not quote Kate? - To many oddies. My guess is that he did put his own interpretation into the book while reading ME. I do believe that Kate had a friendship with Berg - I do also believe that Kate would have wished him to write a biography about her. But I don't believe it was what Kate talked to him about - fellow actors and her opinion about them. And why - because in the various interviews with her - especially the Cavett one - she was very neutral about talking about others. I would have said (being Kate) I am here - ask about me ;D It was Kate we wanted to know more about.
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Post by Judy on May 10, 2009 15:41:50 GMT -5
I don't believe Berg quoted Kate in Kate Remembered. There are too strange quotes in it. As ex. the quotes about Streep, Close and others. Where did he and where did he not quote Kate? - To many oddies. My guess is that he did put his own interpretation into the book while reading ME.
I guess I disagree. I don't find these particular quotes unbelievable, nor do I think the "cold" quote was rude or impolite. And the stuff about Streep and especially about Close sound to me very much like she could have said them.
I do believe that Kate had a friendship with Berg - I do also believe that Kate would have wished him to write a biography about her. But I don't believe it was what Kate talked to him about - fellow actors and her opinion about them. And why - because in the various interviews with her - especially the Cavett one - she was very neutral about talking about others. I would have said (being Kate) I am here - ask about me
The Cavett thing was entirely different. It was a set up interview with cameras rolling. I'm not saying that she was the type to dish other actors or to talk disparagingly about people - and certainly not in public, which the Cavett interview was. I don't think she was (but even there she DID utter something about Brando being a brilliant actor but a limited person).
I agree that Kate might have preferred a biography from him - or that that is what she thought he'd write - But in 20 years I think it highly likely that he would have asked Kate a question about this actor or that and that she might have ventured the opinions he expressed in the book.
What reads in black and white as an insult is often just Kate being honest or pragmatic. There's nothing rude about her comment about Fonda. I agree that there are many things in Berg's book to dislike - and I am quite angry about a number of things he did - but I have a feeling a lot of what he said she said sounds authentic.
I think a big difference between us here, dreamer, is that you seem to feel these quotes are insulting to Kate and I don't think they are in the least.
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Post by Judy on May 10, 2009 16:06:06 GMT -5
My guess is that he did put his own interpretation into the book while reading ME.
By the way, I don't disagree that he interpreted a LOT of things. It's conceivable, though, that when he read that stuff she wrote about Fonda in ME, he recalled her having made the "cold" comment to him. That kind of thing happens in life all the time.
Who knows? All I'm saying is that yI don't think the quotes put Kate in a bad light at all.
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Post by dreamer on May 10, 2009 18:03:52 GMT -5
First of all - I do not think that the quotes are insulting to Kate. It is his way of presenting them.* I guess I disagree. I don't find these particular quotes unbelievable, nor do I think the "cold" quote was rude or impolite. And the stuff about Streep and especially about Close sound to me very much like she could have said them. I haven't used the words rude or impolite - what I said was, that Kate said what she meant in a polite way in ME - being diplomatic There are just to many things that I don't believe in his book. As the way he trashed her after wards - selling her of with open questions about her sexuality. Using the excuse - it wouldn't be believed if not mentioned. A very cheap move. I can't pin point why I so dislike his book. Haha - just mentioned one of my reasons. Secondly: it is too long ago that I read it last time (yes I did read it several times.) Thirdly: All considered (yes there are moments in it where I believe him - moments with smiles - moments with tears) it just isn't one of my fave books. What reads in black and white as an insult is often just Kate being honest or pragmatic. There's nothing rude about her comment about Fonda. I agree that there are many things in Berg's book to dislike - and I am quite angry about a number of things he did - but I have a feeling a lot of what he said she said sounds authentic. That is very true - we totally agree - (also the comment about Fonda is not rude nor insulting) - but when I read her book and then compare it with his - it often seems to me as if he copied from her book adding words - and that is where I find it difficult to believe. Is it she (yes she could have - yes it sounds like) or is it him (a friend learns that after 20 years)? Not because of a possible dishing of someone - but the way he does it. The way he presented the book is what gives me the thoughts. He said as the book came out - she knew about the book but not its content - OK. Also that she had said to him not to publish it while she was alive - OK. But adding things together - there are just some things that I find cheap and one of them - * that is it comes across as if - she wouldn't have said them alive (in public that is) - but through him she would. That is what I dislike. So it has nothing to do with the quotes its self being insulting to Kate. I hope this makes it more clear - I know what I want to express - but am not always as good as I could wish for - I stumble over a word that I do not know how to translate and loose the red thread in my search :sigh: English is a difficult language Your reply though helped me to pin point some thoughts better - Thanks
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Post by Judy on May 10, 2009 22:27:50 GMT -5
Dreamer....
Forgive me for using words you did not. You didn't say he was rude, but when you said that Kate wrote things in a more polite way, I took that to mean that you thought he was the opposite - therefore, impolite.
Okay, NOW I see what you are saying. Yes, I, too, think that if she said something to him in private that she would not have written about herself or spoken about in an interview, it was underhanded of him to express them in the book - even if she may very well have said those things.
It was an odd relationship. It started as one of pure business - interviewer and interviewee. And then developed into a kind of friendship - though I bet many close to Kate doubt that. So, even though Kate was well aware that he was writing about her, at times she could not help but let her guard down and say something she might not have wanted to be in print. But that's the price she paid and all in all I don't think he damaged her too much in that regard - or rather I should say I don't think he took too much advantage of those private quotes.
I'm much more concerned about other aspects of the book that I KNOW you and I agree on. I am not in any way defending Berg's book. In fact, I have major issues with it and have usually been one of the dissenting opinions when people bring it up as one of the best books about Kate. All I was saying is that I do not question all of the quotes he attributed to Kate. His reasons for doing so are another question, but I'm not really sure what his reasons were.
The book rubs me the wrong way in a lot of areas. I question his motives for writing it. I question the manner in which he approached certain subjects and I question his decision to inject SO MUCH of himself into her story. And even though one cannot deny that in her last years she was in decline, I will never forgive him for basically disappearing from her life and then re-entering it to report on that decline. I think that was the biggest invasion of all and makes the issue of whether she said this or that pale in comparison. Since his book was published, of course, others have written of those years - Eileen Considine-Meara, Bacall. Somehow I think of their accounts differently but I can't put my finger on just why I do. Maybe it's because I feel that when Eileen writes about her mother's care of Kate or when Bacall writes of visiting her, I feel that their history with her allows them that expression. They truly WERE part of her life, whereas Berg somehow seems like an intruder - someone who was clearly thrilled to be in her presence but who might have cared more about the fantasy Kate than the real one.
I dunno. But on the matter of Berg, I think we agree more than we disagree.
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Post by dreamer on May 11, 2009 2:27:02 GMT -5
No need for forgiveness Judy It was me and my English Couldn't have said it better - you are pointing at all the areas where I have trouble with the book. You know - reading your last lines - a thought immediately came to my mind. He was an outsider - in the opening of the book where he tells about his dreams/wanting to meet her. He was a FAN - just like we are. We could identify with him - BUT NOT FOR LONG. He didn't treat her with the respect most of us would have given her - nor the love and attention (we are constantly reminded of his work and who he is). The scale wasn't in balance.... "give and take". It was more take than give. Correction - not a fan - the more I think about it - it comes across as if he is bolstering his own ego - people know he knew her. He abandoned her as he didn't need her anymore - when she might have needed a friend around. I remember reading about the time as he studied (not sure what -?Lindbergh?) at the east coast and Kate invited him to stay at her house. He declined - which is fair enough. But the way he presented it - she would really have liked him to stay (or was he putting him and his importance in center again?) but Kate found him another place to stay in those month - and they saw each other every weekend - (if Kate didn't suggest him to do something else (was he selling him self again? or did someone come and he wasn't after all that close to her?)) - Kate waiting for him at the station. Do you get the picture?? Eileen Considine-Meara (through her mom) and Laureen Bacall were in her inner circle - most of their lives through thick and thin - they were friends with Kate and her family. They were there. Where as he comes across (painting the picture himself) as someone using her. I among other things am also thinking about those phone calls - he tells about - where he didn't have time. But where I believe that a true friend would take the time. They didn't come easy for him - more like an obligation - at least that is what I felt reading it. I think she gave him a lot - which he forgot to appreciate or give back which a true friend should do. The excuse with little time - that is not an excuse to me. Haha the more we talk about the book the more questions comes up.
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