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Post by HollywoodHepcat on Feb 25, 2006 2:01:11 GMT -5
Okay, I know the homosexuality part that Kanin wrote about. Which is HILARIOUS and I can see them trying to tell her how they *ahem* ___ and her with her school teacher face on poo-pooing them. Oh Kath. But wait, how could she not believe it and disapprove it if she was friends with homosexuals? George Cukor and Robert Helpmann <-- was he? That's always puzzled me. And Smith...WHA? HUH? Kate went to Spencer's gravesite?!!?! OMG HOW SWEET!! Wow, in Berg's book he's describing a visit to ST's grave and she was astonished that you needed a key to get in, meaning she's never been there. Omg, who cares about Berg's version! I love Gar Kanin.
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Post by smith on Feb 25, 2006 3:39:54 GMT -5
Hi
Its quite probable that Spencer's grave was not enclosed when he was first buried . I think it only shows that she hadn't been there recently and once it got enclosed Katharine could hardly ring up Louise and ask for the key . That is not surprising because in an interview Cukor said Katharine was a dedicated funeral girl and at one stage Katharine and Cukor went to a different funeral every week - Katharine had a special funeral dress and they went every Saturday for an entire year . I guess that was enough funerals and graves for a lifetime
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Post by HollywoodHepcat on Feb 25, 2006 3:43:59 GMT -5
I didn't know that. You bring up a good point with Louise. Awkward x 10,000. That would be so depressing, a different funeral every week? Golly. But good ol' devoted Katie.
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Post by smith on Feb 25, 2006 4:02:08 GMT -5
I don't think Cukor or Katharine knew the people whose funerals they attended - I will have to check out the extract But still at least Katharine had a funeral dress
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Post by karina on Feb 25, 2006 12:49:28 GMT -5
Maybe they were doing some early research for their friend Ruth Gordon's role in Harold and Maude
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Post by Cate on Feb 25, 2006 14:17:56 GMT -5
No that last part wasn't in the book -- but I remember Smith bringing it up a while back. I find it rather hard to believe that someone like Kate would have a difficult time understanding male homosexuality -- too funny. But anyway, no I didn't know there were two sections cut from that book! How did you find that out?
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Post by Cate on Feb 25, 2006 14:20:20 GMT -5
I didn't know there were two pages! Amber -- I'm pretty sure she didn't disapprove of it, she just probably found it hard to believe anyone could do things like that with someone of the same sex. lol
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Post by smith on Feb 25, 2006 15:07:18 GMT -5
The two missing sections were published in a magazaine extract but never made it into the final book .
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Post by HollywoodHepcat on Feb 25, 2006 15:15:11 GMT -5
Catherine, I guess that's what I meant by "disapprove", got mah words mixed up. Oops. I can't see Kate disapproving any person's choice in life. Unless they are homocidal murderers or something. ) But it's still hysterical ROFL Too bad that those parts never made it into the book. With Kanin's style it would have been so fun to read.
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Post by gypsygem81 on Feb 25, 2006 18:56:02 GMT -5
Another thing, I hadn't realised that Kate didn't talk to Garson Kanin for a long time because of the publication of this book. Anyone know anything about that?
Love Gem
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Post by smith on Feb 25, 2006 19:34:37 GMT -5
Gypsygem
Katharine and Kanin's relationship was never the same after this book which must have been difficult since they were next door neighbours .
I guess the book must have upset Louise Tracy because she then cooperated in a magazine article that portrayed her relationship with Spencer as being fine - ignoring the fact that her husband hadn't lived with her for over 27 years .
Basically there was an unspoken agreement on Katharine's part that she wouldn't discuss the relationship with Spencer in public - Kanin publishes the book and basically the book becomes a best seller and the entire world is talking about the relationship . It must have been very humiliating for Louise . I always thought it sad that she gave up her chance for another relationship . If Spencer had gotten a divorce it would have been better for all concerned
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Post by Sherry on Feb 26, 2006 0:31:11 GMT -5
No that last part wasn't in the book -- but I remember Smith bringing it up a while back. I find it rather hard to believe that someone like Kate would have a difficult time understanding male homosexuality -- too funny. But anyway, no I didn't know there were two sections cut from that book! How did you find that out? Have to agree that it is impossible to believe that Kate didn't know about or understand male homosexuality. I think some stories have to be taken with a grain of salt or at least with the realization that Kate was a highly intelligent, sophisticated woman. A woman who also had a tremendous sense of humor so who is to say that she wasn't doing a great acting job with Tracy and Kanin and pulling a joke on them. Imagine how frustrated they were to be going into all of that detail while Kate sat there playing it like she just couldn't believe it or understand them. Which of course forced them to do MORE explaining etc. Meanwhile, she was probably having a huge laugh at their expense. Kanin writes repeatedly that Spencer was into jokes and Kanin, Tracy, Hepburn and Gordon had a bantering, teasing fun relationship -- so I think you have to look beyond what he wrote and think about the fact that Kate was just giving them a bit of their own when she let them do their big explanation and then still said that she couldn't believe it. Plus how rich for her to be able to walk away from the discussion and let the two of them think that she STILL didn't understand it. Sherry
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Post by Cate on Feb 26, 2006 1:23:32 GMT -5
How did I never even think of that!? Your theory sounds more Kate-like than the other! That's even funnier. ;D While I think the book is great there is still that underlying guilt for liking a book that Kate despised being published. I can't believe that someone who was such a close friend with T&H would completely violate the privacy that they so closely guarded. Was he out of work? In need of publicity or did he actually think he was doing Spencer and Kate a favor by revealing his sentiments towards them (while at the same time stabbing them in the back and rubbing salt in Louise's wounds)? No that last part wasn't in the book -- but I remember Smith bringing it up a while back. I find it rather hard to believe that someone like Kate would have a difficult time understanding male homosexuality -- too funny. But anyway, no I didn't know there were two sections cut from that book! How did you find that out? Have to agree that it is impossible to believe that Kate didn't know about or understand male homosexuality. I think some stories have to be taken with a grain of salt or at least with the realization that Kate was a highly intelligent, sophisticated woman. A woman who also had a tremendous sense of humor so who is to say that she wasn't doing a great acting job with Tracy and Kanin and pulling a joke on them. Imagine how frustrated they were to be going into all of that detail while Kate sat there playing it like she just couldn't believe it or understand them. Which of course forced them to do MORE explaining etc. Meanwhile, she was probably having a huge laugh at their expense. Kanin writes repeatedly that Spencer was into jokes and Kanin, Tracy, Hepburn and Gordon had a bantering, teasing fun relationship -- so I think you have to look beyond what he wrote and think about the fact that Kate was just giving them a bit of their own when she let them do their big explanation and then still said that she couldn't believe it. Plus how rich for her to be able to walk away from the discussion and let the two of them think that she STILL didn't understand it. Sherry
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Post by Sherry on Feb 26, 2006 2:10:28 GMT -5
Catherine:
It's difficult to know what compelled Kanin to write this book. I first read it back in 1971 when it was published. At that point everyone who was a Kate fan knew that the relationship with Tracy was more than acting partners. When he had been ill and rushed to the hospital with breathing problems in the early 60's, the newspapers reported that he'd been going on a picnic with Kate. Plus other little items appeared -- so people had figured it out by then. If you recall in the intro to the book, Kanin states: "There comes a time in life when the desire to pass on what one knows becomes intense." Much has been made of the fact that it appeared Kate agreed to his writing the magazine article from which the book grew and then had second thoughts, etc. However, I think that the reality is -- Kanin loved Spencer and Kate and he admired the way that they'd lived their life for 27 years. I think that he understood all of the things that they had sacrificed through the years in order to not flaunt their relationship. I think a part of him felt that it was time for the world to know about these two people -- the total professionalism of both of them, their love for one another, their consideration and caring for other people, and the lengths to which they went so as not to push their relationship in the face of Louise Tracy and her kids. He and Ruth Gordon had occupied a very unique position in that they were friends as well as co-workers on some projects and had seen Kate and Spencer as individuals and as a couple over the years and I believe that he just wanted the world to know these two amazing people as he saw them. Yes, it was an invasion of their privacy, yes, it probably didn't make Louise happy, BUT -- it is probably one of the loveliest books ever written about a long friendship and it is most likely one of the most human accounts we will ever have of Kate and Spencer's life together. Plus -- there is so much love on every page of the book that he has to be forgiven for any trespassing that he did. Bottomline -- he revealed no embarrassing info -- rather he showed them as a couple -- laughing, crying, arguing, living. I loved this book back in 1971 and I love it still. And eventually Kate did forgive him because she felt that life was too short to hold grudges. Plus, I am certain that as time passed, Kate, too, looked past the privacy issue and saw what a really loving portrait it is of both of them.
Finally, I will say this in regard to Louise Tracy. Of course, I am a Kate fan so I come down on the side of Kate. Nonetheless, Louise Tracy was a grown woman. She chose to stay in a marriage that wasn't a marriage. I personally cannot fathom staying married to someone who obviously is in love with someone else. If Tracy wouldn't get a divorce, she should have. I think that Kate was far too generous in trying to spare Louise's feelings and perhaps Kanin felt the same way and thought that by 1971, it was time to say to the world -- Katharine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy loved one another and this is how they lived their lives in a very difficult circumstance. All my opinion but I think Kanin wasn't concerned with any consequences, I think he just wanted people to realize how truly special these two people were.
Sherry
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Post by Cate on Feb 26, 2006 3:13:09 GMT -5
Very well-said Sherry. I have to agree with the last part about Louise Tracy. Being that it was a Catholic marriage I'm sure that weighed heavily on her decision as well but like you said, she was a grown woman and could have made the decision to end a marriage that really wasn't anything other than a legal document after he met Katharine. But if you're in love with someone, even if they've fallen out of love with you, denial takes over. Anyway, I'm glad he did decide to write the book. If a person was already in love with Kate & Spence, this book strengthened that.
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